oil spill repercussions?

I guess the name speaks for its self.

oil spill repercussions?

Postby Andrea on Thu Jun 10, 2010 11:04 am

Hopefully I'll have a bit more time now to engage with Systemsplace now that block 2 is over. I'm certainly very curious to see what Jim thinks of the BP oil spill and the direct repercussions on his job (apparently deepwater drilling in Norway has been suspended.....do you still have a job?!?)

Has the incident tipped us over into peak oil territory? it will certainly make prospecting and extracting new oil much more challenging (and expensive)......

Will it finally break America's love affair with oil?

Will it wake up public attention towards other ongoing oil-related environmental disasters e.g. Shell's destruction of the Niger Delta and its peoples?
esse sequitur operari
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Re: oil spill repercussions?

Postby Neill on Fri Jun 11, 2010 8:31 pm

Theoretically I should also have more time now.
The company in South Africa is working.
The one in the USA is coming along nicely and I have T307 TMA03 finished as of today.

You asked
> Has the incident tipped us over into peak oil territory? it will certainly make prospecting and extracting new oil much more challenging (and expensive)......
> Will it finally break America's love affair with oil?
> Will it wake up public attention towards other ongoing oil-related environmental disasters e.g. Shell's destruction of the Niger Delta and its peoples?

Did Exxon Valdez do any of the above?
Then why should the current problems?

Neill
Neill Hogarth
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Re: oil spill repercussions?

Postby Dave H on Sat Jun 12, 2010 4:46 pm

I tend to consider that the Exxon Valdez is a bad example and the Brent Spar oil platform might be more appropriate to consider.

Since the Exxon Valdez incident attituides have changed significantly on climate change and carbon emissions so on these grounds alone it is a different situation. However what I consider to be more important is the political dimension and this seems to be developing in unexpected ways. I am not sure if it is Obama trying to show the world that the US is doing somethinmg about oil consumption, if it is Obama trying to show the US people that he is concerned about them or if it is somrething of a US UK dispute. It might even be something completely different that is driving the political situation and it would be interesting to hear views on this.
It will be interesting to read the case studies when they are developed.
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Re: oil spill repercussions?

Postby Neill on Sun Jun 13, 2010 7:42 am

Hello Dave,

You wrote that the Brent Spar oil platform may be a better case to consider.
I understand that this was more political but I also suggest that it did nothing to make people reduce their use of oil.
And if I understood Andrea correctly, he was suggesting that the current problem may lead to a change in attitude that will lead to a reduced use of oil.

I do not believe that and amount of disasters will reduce our use of oil. None have until now. Chernobyl did not stop us using nuclear power. The fact is that we all enjoy our energy based life style too much to change.

I think that the only real change will come as other energy forms allow us to "carry on" with a slightly higher cost.
In Germany, 10% of our energy now comes from regenerative sources and the amount of wind, solar and biogas is growing and growing.
And why? Because by law the utility companies have to buy this expensive energy at a high price and sell it on to the customers at the "mix" price.
Slowly our roofs are turning from red (tiles) to blue (solar panels) and from the top of the mountain I see more wind generators every week.
I was at a GE plant recently and their biggest customer for mid sized gas engines were German farmers who use them to drive generators. A change is possible but it need to be technology driven because we are not going to stop using energy.

Has any one her significantly reduced their "energy lifestyle" in the last two years?
I have changed devices for more efficient devices (car, wash machine, dish washer, lights) and installed solar heating. I use more regenerative energy than before because that is the way the electricity comes out of the socket but I still "live" as I did.
Neill Hogarth
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Re: oil spill repercussions?

Postby Teiana on Sun Jun 13, 2010 4:00 pm

if it goes on long enough leaking it will reduce our use of oil since we won't have any left. They've been saying for 40 years it's about to run out. I can't believe this much has leaked out and been wasted and there's still any left. Can't be long now before it runs out.
H.R.H. 8-)
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Re: oil spill repercussions?

Postby Teiana on Sun Jun 13, 2010 4:02 pm

i don't get why they can't make nice red roof tile coloured solar panels. I don't mind the idea of panels but they really trash the look of some places. Red would be much nicer.
H.R.H. 8-)
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Re: oil spill repercussions?

Postby Dave H on Sun Jun 13, 2010 7:14 pm

I agree that it is unlikely that there will be any voluntary reduction in the use of oil. However I consider that the current changed attitudes are likely to mean that the Gulf of Mexico incident will result in a different reaction to the Exxon Valdez incident. I am not sure what that outcome will be and it will be interestingto see how the situation develops.

For regenerative energy is wind a good source. The wind turbines interrupt radio transmissions and cause problems with radar. It also appears that they are danger to birds.Thus is there a good form of energy production.

Almost picking up your point why are we so attached to energy comsumption when the creation of energy causes so many problems. This could be a useful aspect to investigate.
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Re: oil spill repercussions?

Postby Neill on Sun Jun 13, 2010 8:50 pm

You wrote:
> For regenerative energy is wind a good source.
It is currently the most cost effective regenerative energy.
In Germany there were 24 Gigawatt (GW) of systems installed and they produced about 40 billion Kilowattstunden (kWh).


> The wind turbines interrupt radio transmissions and cause problems with radar. It also appears that they are danger to birds.Thus is there a good form of energy production.
Could you please quote the sources of this as the radio and radar problems are completely new to me. A company that I own part of is currently looking at mounting VAWTs on our relay masts to keep the batteries topped up. I have heard the "bird killer" theory but the other two I have not heard of.
I can only find suggestions that the US Department of Defence says that the generators may interfere with military radar in Nantucket Sound. But even this is at odds with a report by the US air force.
I think that it was in the film "Age of Stupid" where they showed how the UK is against wind power "in my back garden" and I hope that these are just "excuses".
As I said I would like to know where these concerns come from.

My information about bird strikes is that it appears to be minimal (study by the German SPB in 2005).
As the systems get larger and therefore slower the problem is likely to decrease.
Apparently bats have more problem although this needs to be studied further
More at http://www.awea.org/faq/sagrillo/swbirds.html

I really thought that we had hit on a good idea with the VAWTs but maybe we should just install the (cheaper) generators and produce some more CO2

Neill
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Re: oil spill repercussions?

Postby Dave H on Mon Jun 14, 2010 9:18 am

Thanks for your message.

The situation you describe of having the wind turbine and radio equipment co-located is a new situation to me and most of the literature I am aware of describes situations where the wind turbine is in the path of the radio transmissions.
Some of Ofcom documents are http://ofcom.org.uk/radiocomms/ifi/lice ... easurement and http://ofcom.org.uk/radiocomms/ifi/lice ... dbacon.pdf A search on the Ofcom website identifies some other documents.

From the commercial sector http://transfinite.com/campaigns/WindFa ... Links.html

Interested in your view that the UK is against wind power as Ofcom found more problems than other countries regarding the possibility of mobile services at 2.6 GHz interferring with aircraft radar systems.
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Re: oil spill repercussions?

Postby Andrea on Mon Jun 14, 2010 2:59 pm

I would tend to agree with Neill in this case, in that there are very strong pressures for maintaining the status quo with the current "system". We could be seeing, for example, another situation where a company (in this case, BP) is "too big to fail". It seems as if a significant proportion of the UK's pension investments and government tax revenues are tied up with BP. It is therefore not surprising that even the current prime minister has been roped into "defending" BP against the American backlash.

On the other hand, how far do we have to go into trashing the planet before people wake up? An incredibly extensive area of the Gulf of Mexico has now been turned into an oily/toxic cesspit from just a single "technological" failure. But unlike many environmental crises, the social and economic impacts can already be counted. So, I figured that you don't have to be a systems thinker to start making the connections. Surely, even Joe Bloggs can tell that the current system is rotten?
esse sequitur operari
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